April 2025, I recorded AI Talk Season 2 with Li Xiang, founder and CEO of Li Auto. The conversation lasted a long time, but the broadcast version was only 1 hour. Today you are seeing the full version.
This episode was released later than expected. I've been too busy the past few months, and I hesitated to release it. But when I reorganized this content, I was still touched by it - **This is a "node-style thinking archive" about the technological revolution of artificial intelligence.**
You can watch it in conjunction with our 3-hour conversation at the end of 2024 to feel the extension and echo of thinking between the two dialogues.
**This time, I asked Li Xiang questions as a "CEO large model."**
Assuming he is a MoE (Mixture of Experts) architecture model, I called his three "experts" in the first three rounds of the conversation: technology expert, strategy expert, and organization expert. And as the conversation deepened into the second half, we began to discuss people, energy, intimate relationships, memory programs, and human wisdom.
**"The relationship between AI and humans" is the theme of this dialogue.**
(Recorded in April 2025)
> **02:35 Chapter 1: Suppose You Are a CEO Large Model**
Humans do entropy reduction, AI does entropy increase
Three levels of tools: "information tools", "auxiliary tools", "production tools"
The important measure of a "production tool" is: you are willing to pay for it
Liang Wenfeng minimally used the best human practices
Following best practices is anti-human, doing whatever you want satisfies human nature
I can only be the best version of myself, I have always been on the extension line of my strengths
Why does Li Auto still make a base large model?
At that time, we were more worried about what Chen Wei's team (the base model self-developed team) thought? This pressure is quite high
> **36:18 Chapter 2: Calling MoE's Technology Expert**
Li Xiang teaches you how to train VLA
Reaching VLA is not a sudden change, but an evolutionary process, which has gone through three stages
Let me tell you how VLA is trained and how VLA works by itself
I don't do super long CoT, my CoT chain is generally two to three steps
There won't be a general Agent for at least 5 years, but there will be an Agent OS
You have to speak according to human nature and act against human nature
If everyone doesn't want to accumulate the buns in front and just wants to eat the 10th bun, it's very similar to practicing the "Sunflower Manual"
Black box, world model and pricing logic
The verification cost of every 10,000 kilometers, we have reduced from 180,000 at the beginning to 4,000 yuan
> **01:25:36 Chapter 3: Calling MoE's Strategic Expert**
2025 Yanqi Lake Strategic Meeting
If you look at the strategy, the circle in the middle is the scale, and there are three variables outside the circle: user needs, technology products, and organizational capabilities
Those with these four characteristics are the terminals of the AGI era: the ability to perceive the physical world 360 degrees, the ability to make cognitive decisions, the ability to take action, and the ability to reflect and provide feedback
In the AGI era, the requirements for capabilities have become different
If we look at 2030, we hope to become a globally leading artificial intelligence terminal enterprise
This is the question we need to solve in the next 3-6 years
Is Li Xiang's ideal too ideal?
Build a 3-7 person energy body
High-dimensional organizations are compatible with low-dimensional organizations
> **02:09:26 Chapter 4: Wisdom is the Relationship Between Us and All Things**
My memory program
Starting a business is not easy, but there is no need to be miserable
Eldest daughter
We have achieved a "three-person support" in our family, which has greatly improved the energy of the family
People are used to play, people are not used to change
Don't build so many intimate relationships, too many intimate relationships prove that this person doesn't know how to manage relationships
Develop wisdom as an important human trait
My first 3-hour interview with Li Xiang:
"3-hour interview with Li Xiang (Podcast version): Otaku, AI, family, games and ladder"
This episode is also available in text and video versions:
Article: Public account (language is world)
Video: Bilibili (Zhang Xiaojun's business interview record)
Original title:
118. 对李想的第二次3小时访谈：CEO大模型、MoE、梁文锋、VLA、能量、记忆、对抗人性、亲密关系、人类的智慧
Original description:
<figure><img src="https://image.xyzcdn.net/Flo18nNUSP7OUNlTf8UgCdHxio6O.jpg" /></figure><p>2025年4月，…
